Jonathan Wrights ([info]lord_gribeau) wrote in [info]fanficrants,
2005-10-11 18:11:00

Males

I'm male. I love being male.

And I'm annoyed at parts of the female fan fiction population, especially the quasi-academic, use-big-word female crowd. I'm annoyed at females who put down men in discussions regarding fan fiction. I'm annoyed at the portrayal of men in fan fiction.

If you're going to discuss men, INVITE THEM TO THE TABLE. If you look through some of the conversations on the big meta and fic journals that discuss gender, slash, & reading habits of the fan fiction writing community, you frequently see a lot of women, females, girls. Rarely do you see any men. These women, you know who I mean, will talk and talk about men. And they'll subtlely bash my wonderful gender. They'll say that isn't it wonderful that women can identify with characters regardless of gender and men can't do that. Shove it female fans with your elitist feminine attitudes! Men can relate to female characters just as well as women can relate to male characters. Some men can. Some women can't. And your brother, husband, lover, gay male friend, father do not represent all males. Get a larger pool. Men can do romance. Straight men can watch two gay guys screwing on screen with out going all homophobic on people's asses. There are some wonderful anime shows with two guys in a relationship that have male audiences. Your female bashing of men as being uninterested in romance is hurtful to men because it reinforces negative stereotypes.

So stop your discriminating. Stop your talking about our gender without actually asking our opinions or getting us involved in those discussions. Stop putting down our gender in order to put yours up.

You'd think fan fiction writers and slash writers, would know better than to do this but it just isn't so. Learn and stop the playa hating male bashing that exists in too many fan fiction communities. We see you even if we're not saying it!

ETA: Seriously, though, gender stereotyping is wrong. Very true, [info]revelininsanity. I think I just needed to rant/vent for a while.

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[info]quettaser

October 11 2005, 23:29:23 UTC 6 years ago

Word. There really aren't enough vocal men in the fanfiction community. Luckily, my main fandom has many active men who are loud about gender equality in fiction and the fandom itself.

There's this double-standard beginning to emerge where the women writers are commiting all the sins that men writers did on the shows that drove most of us to fanfiction in the first place.

[info]skyler_daemon

October 11 2005, 23:29:35 UTC 6 years ago

May this female appluad you for doing this. I know of a few male writers who can be just as good at writing and dealing with characters of both genders and frankly those type of writers get on my nerves as well.

They make my gender look so bad at times. >.

[info]sorakh28

October 11 2005, 23:31:29 UTC 6 years ago

Despite being a closet feminist, I applaud you for standing up to your fellow men. I also hate descrimination.

[info]felinephoenix

October 12 2005, 00:15:20 UTC 6 years ago

Yes, because all feminists hate men, right? The ones who are real feminists don't. Just ignore the ones who give us a bad name.

[/Not-a-Closet-Feminist]

[info]nerdork

6 years ago

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[info]felinephoenix

6 years ago

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[info]nerdork

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[info]silverr

October 11 2005, 23:37:13 UTC 6 years ago

You make some points, but it's complicated, right?

1. We don't see men? Hm, if they spoke up, we'd know they were there.

2. And your brother, husband, lover, gay male friend, father do not represent all males. Get a larger pool.

Er, how? and ... hell, if a writer really is drawing on brother, husband, lover, gay friends, and father ...why isn't that a decent representation?

3. I'd delicately like to point out that you're grouping "all" female fen and writers into one big blob - double standard much?

4. I've known a lot of men in my life. A lot of them WERE jerks. Why can't I represent that in faictionas well as noble types?

[info]shanaqui

October 11 2005, 23:44:59 UTC 6 years ago

"4. I've known a lot of men in my life. A lot of them WERE jerks. Why can't I represent that in faictionas well as noble types?"

Amen to that. Every guy I've dated has been a jerk. x_x; I've never met a one that was nice about breaking up, for example.

[info]silverr

6 years ago

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[info]randomsome1

6 years ago

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[info]gal_montag

October 11 2005, 23:37:38 UTC 6 years ago

My question, where *are* y'all? Speak up, man! I've rarely seen a male fanficcer since I was deep into anime back in the day.

[info]kutsuwamushi

October 12 2005, 01:59:30 UTC 6 years ago

It's kind of hard to invite people to join a discussion if you don't know where they are. I'm having a hard time figuring out how the lack of male fans taking part is the female fans' fault.

[info]gal_montag

6 years ago

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[info]lavaliere

October 11 2005, 23:39:00 UTC 6 years ago

Men can relate to female characters just as well as women can relate to male characters. Some men can. Some women can't.

Totally agreed. I find it's actually difficult for me at times to write a male character 'cause half the time I'm not sure how they'd react to a certain situation. As a female, I can't always get into a male's mind.

I've never come across the discrimination shpeal, but I have to say that I think it's ridiculous... =|

[info]our_innocence

October 11 2005, 23:40:04 UTC 6 years ago

My goodness, they do this? I mean, I knew some did, but I chalked it up to the idiot quota every fandom must have.

I spent a lot of time in male-dominated fandoms [at least from where I sat] like Star Wars and Sin City before diving headfirst into the HP fandom, so I suppose I don't have a clear view on things.

But you're absolutely right, and it kills me that we don't have more male writers, actually. I get tired of the whole "females do this better" thing [I'm a girl], because quite frankly, I haven't seen loads of improvement in their writings, due to their estrogen overdrive. :: sighs and offers cookies ::

On behalf of all the females who enjoy the company of the opposite gender, I'm sorry. :(

[info]meliadoul

October 11 2005, 23:50:25 UTC 6 years ago

I didn't realise that some female fic writers discriminate men. If anything a few of them descriminate against woman by turning the females characters into bitches or just killing them off while praising the male characters.

[info]millyfan

October 11 2005, 23:56:56 UTC 6 years ago

Counting down to wank. . .

5. . .4. . .

I've got the boobies, anyone got the popcorn?

[info]felinephoenix

October 12 2005, 00:13:22 UTC 6 years ago

Re: Counting down to wank. . .

Mmm, I do. Want extra butter?

[info]millyfan

6 years ago

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[info]fencer_x

October 12 2005, 00:04:46 UTC 6 years ago

There's probably a line by now, but what the heck:

Marry me?

[info]seiberwing

October 12 2005, 02:49:53 UTC 6 years ago

What the frag is that icon?

[info]fencer_x

6 years ago

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[info]seiberwing

6 years ago

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[info]shinran

October 12 2005, 00:09:37 UTC 6 years ago

I can't comment because I haven't read the fanfics or the discussion that you talk about. Could you give me a link?

But, stereotyping sucks. You should really speak up, though (well, you did speak up here, but I mean, you know, to the face of the culprit). Hey, why don't you post your piece of mind as a girl and again as a guy and compare the reaction from them? You might find some interesting results. And those academic types can be anal so make sure to do your homework beforehand...gather a few journal articles that supports your position.

I'm a feminist, but my women's studies prof called me a 'humanist' (and she meant it as an insult) just because I said the patriarchal system sucks for both women and men. Oh well. I'm fine with being a humanist.

[info]raptorscribe

October 12 2005, 00:09:45 UTC 6 years ago

Is this why most people at fan-fic discussion communities assume I'm a girl?

[info]vampslayer04

October 12 2005, 00:21:16 UTC 6 years ago

Probably.

[info]chibikaijuu

6 years ago

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[info]drworm

October 12 2005, 00:21:53 UTC 6 years ago

Hmm.

What, you haven't been fawned over by female fans lately simply for being one of the rare males? Oh dear! *sarcasm*

I have a lot of hate for over-feminized males in fanfiction, which is one of the things female writers are frequently accused of. And, yeah, it does throw me when a fanfic includes such characterizations... but more often than not, they're simply very poor characterizations by often mediocre writers. I dunno, making it into a gender-stereotyping issue is so... weird. Saying one gender can write certain characterizations better than another is also weird.

And, y'know, I also have a lot of hate for feminists who think women are superior. And yet, this still just... makes me want to roll my eyes.

Stop your talking about our gender with out actually asking our opinions or getting us involved in those discussions.

Um... now, I admit that if there is a discussion going on about gender and writing fanfic, both sides need representation. But dude. It's not like men are a rarity, in real life or in culture. It's not like the male point-of-view so desperately lacks representation in the world. There seems to be a feeling (on MANY subjects, not just gender) that if you don't represent the whole group, you misrepresent them. The question shouldn't be "Are you writing such-and-such male character as a male?" but "Are you approximating his characterization and making him believable in relation to the canon portrayal?"

Fuck gender, people. BETTER CHARACTERIZATION. (Ooh, a new buzzword, it would seem.)

[info]revelininsanity

October 12 2005, 02:34:58 UTC 6 years ago

Re: Hmm.

Characterization.

I love it.

:glomps you:

[info]torquemadman

6 years ago

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[info]sodzilla

October 12 2005, 00:25:04 UTC 6 years ago

Let's see. I happen to believe that no, men don't generally like or write female characters as well as women do male ones. I base this on the fact that over two years of frequent discussion on a large (2500+ members at that time) forum dedicated to a particular fantasy series, there would always be far more bashing from men against female characters than from women against male ones. When the forum was polled, a majority of the men said they preferred male PoVs, and many even said that they wouldn't be likely to read a book which featured mostly or solely female PoV characters.

Also, in the field of SF and fantasy, I have come across exactly two male authors whom I think consistently write women as people, not as... women. (Well, three if you count a certain scriptwriter). Female authors generally do a lot better with male characters.

[info]kutsuwamushi

October 12 2005, 01:44:52 UTC 6 years ago

Yes.

I'd like to move to a universe where guys like female characters as much as the male ones, but I'm stuck here, where men have learned that they can lust after a character with breasts but not *identify* with her. Women are not similarly closed to male characters - at least not to anywhere near the same degree.

Of course that's a gross generalization, but it's a problem. I don't know how anyone can *not* see it.

[info]story645

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[info]felinephoenix

October 12 2005, 00:42:09 UTC 6 years ago

Just a thought here...like other people have brought up, if you want men to have larger voices in fandom, why don't you weigh in? I do agree with you that there is some male bashing in some corners of fandom (emphasis on some), but really, the reason that there's a lack of males voices is because they aren't speaking up. We could theorize all day long about why, but those are just the facts. There aren't a lot of male fanfic writers.

That said, I disagree with you that opposite-gender bashing is something only girls do. Men are just as bad when the tables are turned. Take gaming, for instance, which is a very male-oriented fandom. Almost every female gamer will tell you that she's been bashed and stereotyped by her male gamer counterparts. And much like men in fanfiction, female characters are horribly stereotyped and underrepresented. (Do I really need to provide examples?)

However, the opposite-sex bashing isn't going to stop unless men and women make fandom more inclusive. Stop whining about how all the mean girls are silencing you and just speak the hell up. I promise you, most of us girls aren't against having a guy's opinion around here.

[info]chibikaijuu

October 12 2005, 00:50:11 UTC 6 years ago

Girls get bashed *in the middle of face-to-face gaming* as well, or at least treated very stereotypically. I was part of an ongoing D&D game at daycamp the summer I was 14. The DM was this eleven-year-old snot who insisted on giving my character idiotic powers like "booty call" and trying to get me to kiss one of the other players (we only let him DM because it was his stuff, and I only didn't kick the crap out of him because I had about a foot and 50 pounds on him, and didn't really feel like getting kicked out of camp). In retrospect, I should have said something, but who's going to call sexual harrassment on an 11-year-old?

[info]felinephoenix

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[info]yoshitsune

October 12 2005, 01:05:22 UTC 6 years ago

Well, as an ardent feminist who happens to be a guy, I have to applaud this. I too have seen the "men can't identify with women as well as women can identify with men" thing, and it kinda pisses me off. I think both sides have their people who can write the opposite sex incredibly well and both sides have their people who couldn't write about the opposite sex to save their lives. (Sadly, the latter always seems to be more numerous.)

Sure, there are guys who can't write women to save their lives; on the other hand, the same is true of some women and writing guys. I don't see how writing weepy feminized bitch-boys is any better than writing boobtacular sexpot wish-fulfillment women.

As for why the rush to judgment: I think part of the problem is that you get a lot of asshole guys involved in fandom and it can lead people in the fandom to generalize. (And this is not to say you don't get asshole women too, it's just that the same amount makes a much smaller percentage; ten jerks is a much bigger percentage when you've got a total of fifteen guys in a fandom as opposed to, say, forty women.) It eventually gets to the point where some people just aren't willing to give the benefit of the doubt to new people, and immediately tar them with a generalization. Fortunately, it's not like EVERYONE does this - I know plenty of people who are perfectly willing to pronounce authors innocent until proven asshole.

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[info]herongale

6 years ago

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[info]somnambulicious

October 12 2005, 01:07:32 UTC 6 years ago

If you look through some of the conversations on the big meta and fic journals that discuss gender, slash, reading habits of the fan fiction writing community, you frequently see a lot of women, females, girls. Rarely do you see any men.

Did the mean, nasty feminists come into your house and steal your keyboard after they detected your Y chromosome over the internet? Goddammit, I hate it when they do that.

[info]mhari

October 12 2005, 01:30:47 UTC 6 years ago

...Okay, okay! I confess! I just couldn't help myself. It was the PMS.

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[info]mhari

6 years ago

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[info]byakuganchick

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[info]peace_piper

October 12 2005, 01:18:21 UTC 6 years ago

Word. I'd like to see more men in my fandoms. I get a bit sick of dealing with many women and the things they talk about as described above.

[info]kannaophelia

October 12 2005, 09:24:10 UTC 6 years ago

I know, and I understand your pain. It must be so hard for you, having to deal with women and women talking about things and everything. If you're really unlucky, they might even talk about their periods.

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[info]benelinspace

5 years ago

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[info]ginalin

October 12 2005, 01:34:09 UTC 6 years ago

I must be an exception. Most of the men I know are great.

I have more issues with female friends than male friends, and always have.

As a fanfiction writer, I actually have to more careful not to make my women characters too bitchy.

[info]runawaykael

August 2 2006, 16:08:56 UTC 5 years ago

Every woman I've ever known who said this ended up picking a fight sooner or later. This is random and from nowhere and you don't know me, but that phrase always makes me flinch.

"I tend to have problems with women, but get along great with guys" is a phrase that generally comes from self-righteous stong-like-my-father types who are only as strong as the men around them want them to be, who are sexy/demure as expectations demand, and who actively resent other women, even if not immediately, when they enter their space.

This may not be you - if you're nothing like that, I just wanted to give you heads-up on what that phrase can bring to the minds of a lot of other women. (I'm not just speaking for myself here.)

[info]ginalin

5 years ago

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[info]runawaykael

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[info]ginalin

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[info]evilpuppy

October 12 2005, 01:56:15 UTC 6 years ago

Ah, sweetheart, you ask too much of your stereotypical, average-fangirl. It's just not possible for them to actually write men as men. Or anything remotely resembling the opposite gender. In any way. As they prove to the general populace so many, many times.

Agonizing regularity really.

Quite frankly, not many of them can even manage to get women right, and they've had years of practice with that characterization.

[info]papirini

October 12 2005, 02:04:54 UTC 6 years ago

Indeed. I can actually name some men in my fandom who have done exquisite - hell, dead-on characterizations of the Sailor Moon females. They put most female SM writers to shame.

Unfortunately, it's true - instead of Lord Chaos being applauded by people for his classic fics, which have some of the best characterizations in AU-ish settings, such as 1101, we have the craptacular Princess Destiny with her misspellings, OOCness and assraping "epic" Spin the Bottle getting fawning fans to mail bomb dissenters for thinking Princess Destiny is nothing less than the next Anne Rice!

Which I find wholly ironic.

So, this woman says to the rant: AMEN!

[info]skyrat13

October 12 2005, 02:30:46 UTC 6 years ago

wow. I'm female, and I *can't* relate to female anime characters. I only write fanfic in a male voice. Weird.

But then, my boyfriend has been known to appreciate yaoi and cries when Superman and Lois Lane get together.....

I think you have been looking in entirely the wrong journals....

[info]kinneas

October 13 2005, 18:07:16 UTC 6 years ago

I think you have a pussy boyfriend.

[info]skyrat13

6 years ago

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[info]revelininsanity

October 12 2005, 02:39:49 UTC 6 years ago

elitist feminine attitudes!

Sure, as soon as you knock it off with your dominator model masculine tendencies.

Seriously, I understand your anger, but to tell you the truth, I think you'll have as much success here as I do when I point out to my guy friends that most comic book and fan artists seem to never have seen real breats.

[info]revelininsanity

October 12 2005, 02:50:51 UTC 6 years ago

*Breasts. Because I can spell. No really.

Seriously, though, gender stereotyping is wrong. Remember, for every Rayek, there is a Redlance.

AND I HAVE SPENT THE PAST TWO YEARS LOOKING FOR MINE! I CURSE YOU, WINNIPEG, FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY BLACKENED HEART!

[info]lord_dingsi

5 years ago

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[info]cereta

October 12 2005, 03:01:02 UTC 6 years ago

If you're going to discuss men, INVITE THEM TO THE TABLE.

Um, no.

You want to show up? Fine, peachy keen, pull up a chair. I will happily listen to what you have to say (assuming you're actually interested in having a discussion and listening to me in turn), and I may take it to heart or I may disregard it. But I'm not going to go out of my way to invite you.

Mostly? I'm writing for an audience of women like myself and the men who share our preferences. I have zero interest in making my work more appealing to a larger male audience.

Also:

Men can relate to female characters just as well as women can relate to male characters.

The stats and studies really do not back you up there, dude. If you, personally can, that's great, but it doesn't change the fact that boys and men on the whole are less likely to embrace texts with female protagonists than women are to embrace texts with male protagonists.

[info]mhari

October 12 2005, 03:09:03 UTC 6 years ago

WORD

I would like to renew my subscription to your newsletter. :)

[info]cereta

6 years ago

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[info]ruriruri

October 12 2005, 03:24:28 UTC 6 years ago

I can honestly say that one of the best fanfics I ever read was by a guy. Gunslinger Girl fandom, no less.

I agree with you.

[info]vampirenaomi

October 12 2005, 13:27:21 UTC 6 years ago

Battlezone by Nachtsider?

[info]dinpik

6 years ago

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