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Please acknowledge how obsecenly powerful the BtVS cast has gotten by the time Supernatural begins. Xander has become the coordination guy extraordinair, Buffy has grown in both competence and strength (killing an 8ft tall demon with a cross to the skull), and Willow has reached Dr. Strange levels of Magical contorl and power (Previews of Season 8 #3 show her with fun swirling magical bolts and taking over an entire Zombie Army and having them ask their opponents for a dance in a cordial way).
Or, to reference the 7th season: Willow is a telepath, has telekinetic abilities, direct energy blasts, able to absorb magical energy through contac, able to generate powerful energy shields and can cast other spells. Buffy is superhumanly strong, durable and fast and post 7, has access to a powerful artifact. Giles has a variety of supernatural contacts and informational resources beyond the Winchester Boys wildest dreams. And Xander can drywall you into the next century.
It will take much more than one powerful posessing demon and his handfull of lackies to take them down.
Or, to reference the 7th season: Willow is a telepath, has telekinetic abilities, direct energy blasts, able to absorb magical energy through contac, able to generate powerful energy shields and can cast other spells. Buffy is superhumanly strong, durable and fast and post 7, has access to a powerful artifact. Giles has a variety of supernatural contacts and informational resources beyond the Winchester Boys wildest dreams. And Xander can drywall you into the next century.
It will take much more than one powerful posessing demon and his handfull of lackies to take them down.
Also, why hasn't there been a Supernatural crossover with Hack/Slash yet?
(I know why, because even though Cassie Hack fought Chucky, she's still not well known, but it still annoys me).
April 20 2007, 14:04:18 UTC 5 years ago
They may be canonocal, but please accept the fact that not all Buffy fan writers follow the comics. It's perfectly acceptible to accept one portion of canon and not another, especially if those sources are in two different mediums.
April 20 2007, 14:07:51 UTC 5 years ago
There are people who ignore the Buffy movie, there are people who ignore the first two comic series, there can be people who ignore the Season 8 comics.
(Yes, the first two series of comics, Buffy and Tales of the Slayer were never confirmed as canon. But the movie started it all. Unless you go all specific and say that the Buffy:the Origin comic is the right canon since it's the one based on Joss's script and has the burning gym scene)
April 20 2007, 14:14:53 UTC 5 years ago
And no. It's not perfectly acceptable to accept one peice of canon and ignore another.
Canon isn't like mainstream religion where you can pick and choose what you want. You take the good, you take the bad, and if that's not up, state your in an AU beforehand.
Let me tell you the story of Xombie. It began as a Web-toon, spawned a web-comic, became a novel and is now a Comic. It keeps the same writer and storyline throughout. By your logic, it would be perfectly acceptable to accept only the webtoon or the novel as canonical.
Which is horeshit, since you need all of them in order to understand the story.
It's the same thing with Buffy canon, except without the cliffhangers between media.
April 20 2007, 14:35:13 UTC 5 years ago
We're not saying that Willow isn't Dr. Strange on a skirt, or that Xander isn't the Slayer's Sargeant or that Buffy is in Italy dating the Immortal.
We're acknowledging that that canon exists.
What we're also acknowledging is that some people simply don't care at all about the comics, just as some people didn't care about Angel the Series, or about the last two seasons of Buffy.
And that if those people want to write a SPN/Buffy crossover, and only deal with the canon they know, is perfectly ok.
It's already an AU. They can put a warning about "Buffy spoilers up to season 7" and that's about it.
(Also, if Joss's word is the one that counts, and not the media... then that means that what? The movie Buffy is canon or Buffy: the origin is canon? Since they sort of contradict each other in some points and both were penned by Joss?)
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April 20 2007, 16:11:25 UTC 5 years ago
The Highlander fandom's been picking and choosing bits of canon since before you started middle school. Transformers has been doing it even longer. Power Rangers just slightly less time.
You are free to dislike it when people *do* pick and choose between often contradictory canon events (HL being a case in point - the first movie, Connor wins The Prize; the second movie, everyone's from Zeist and actually aliens; the tv series gradually drops any and all mentions of The Gathering and The Prize; the third movie is just daaaaaaamn strange; HL:The Raven says a violent death's needed to become Immortal; the fourth movie's even stranger; the fifth movie...well I haven't seen that but reports are it's baaaaaad), but they're equally free to do that picking and choosing.
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April 20 2007, 19:58:50 UTC 5 years ago
It really isn't.
I am/was a writer in the CLOSED CANON of the seven seasons of the TV show.
If Joss wants to carry on telling Buffy's story in a comic, good for him, but it's not additional canon for the show. If I write a S8 or later fic it will, purely by virtue of the fact that it's set after the show ended, be based on an extrapolation of canon rather than canon itself, and the comics don't come into it.
Comics are different. Way different. Different information being disseminated in a different way.
Fannish media don't always mix well; think orange juice and milk.
I might, if I wanted to and had any interest in the comics, use the information they provide in a fic, but I don't feel under any obligation to the way you suggest.
BtVS the TV show is over. The sets have been dismantled, the staff and actors moved on.
There is no S8 of the show and, going out on a limb, there never will be.
Now, I'll give you Firefly and Serenity; they belong together.
But BtVS the TV show and the comics? Nope.
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April 20 2007, 16:53:42 UTC 5 years ago
And I've written a fair amount of Buffy fic, and still rewatch the DVDs frequently. I'm not a sloppy researcher. If you're going to call something canon, then that information's got to be distributed better than it is now in order for people to know to include it as such.
April 20 2007, 17:06:17 UTC 5 years ago
Ignorance of them is an acceptable reason for not including them. Afterall, How could you include their information if you didn't know they existed?
And they really only apply to post season 7 stories anyway (at least so far).
April 20 2007, 16:35:34 UTC 5 years ago
Wow. Thank you for informing me that I have to take comics canon into account.
With all due respect, Joss himself has said the comics are not as canon as the television series. He will cheerfully and willingly gut comics!canon to meet the demands to doing a filmed version (should the opportunity arise). Cite, just in case you're interested.
If Joss isn't going to give the comics the same level of "respect" as he gave the television series, why should I?
Besides, I have zero desire to buy the comic books, ergo, I am not familiar with comics canon, nor do I want to be.
In every single fandom I've ever dealt with where there's a comics canon to go along with a film or television show (which is happening more and more these days), people who write fanfic indicate whether a story or other fan-made media takes comics!canon into account or not and they leave it at that.
The only place where people kick up a fuss is in Buffy fandom. *rolls eyes*
Yeah, whatever....
April 20 2007, 16:44:13 UTC 5 years ago
It's far more intricate than that.
And I love how people are COMPLETLY MISSING THE POINT.
Even without Season 8, the setup for it in Season 7 precludes the conclusions of the author.
April 20 2007, 17:04:21 UTC 5 years ago
It's also not that hard to understand another little simple fact: The people who are buying the comic books are a subset of whatever is left of still-active Buffy fandom. If the comic book series runs long enough, there's even a chance that you'll have some fans who've only read the comic books and have never seen the television show.
Now, you said it's a peeve that a lot of Buffy fanfic writers aren't even acknowledging the comic books series. Okay, fine. Rant community. It's your right to find that to be a peeve.
However, comments to other people in this thread who have pointed out that it is common practice in other fandoms where there's competing canons (comic books, vs. novels, vs. television shows, vs. movies) into separate canons based on media, regardless of what the creator says or does not say, is, shall we say, very, very immature.
For you to turn around and insist that every gosh-darn fanfic writer take into account or acknowledge the comic books in some way (even if it's in the warnings/author notes), even though the fanfic writer has zero interest, doesn't care, and has never read the comic books and never will read the comic books is pretty darn presumptuous of you, don't you think?
Hate to break it to you, sport. You throwing a fit about this whenever someone contradicts you and points out that the separation of Buffy comics!canon and television!canon has a pretty long history that actually works isn't going to change anyone's mind. You calling people lazy for not head-nodding at the comics books is not going to win anyone over to your side, either.
So, no, I don't think anyone misunderstanding what you're writing at all. If we're all "misunderstanding" you the same way, than chances are you're saying it wrong and haven't been at all clear about your point. So maybe a little bit of a reword?
Just sayin'.
April 20 2007, 19:06:14 UTC 5 years ago
No. Really. It's not that complicated. Joss will Joss himself should the need arise and should it be necessary. He has said so.
And Fanfic Authors have to warn before that for they are not Joss.
It's also not that hard to understand another little simple fact: The people who are buying the comic books are a subset of whatever is left of still-active Buffy fandom. If the comic book series runs long enough, there's even a chance that you'll have some fans who've only read the comic books and have never seen the television show.
Given how often the show is rerun on FX and Angel is rerun on TNT (okay, not as much anymore), and both have reached syndication age, it is doubtful. Couple in the availability of fansites and reviewsites and "All Things Philosophical on BtVS" website. It's unlikely.
However, comments to other people in this thread who have pointed out that it is common practice in other fandoms where there's competing canons (comic books, vs. novels, vs. television shows, vs. movies) into separate canons based on media, regardless of what the creator says or does not say, is, shall we say, very, very immature.
I look at what the evidence and statements are in full and draw conclusions from that. If you have a different conclusion, then I am willing to listen to it if you can prove the point. If not...
For you to turn around and insist that every gosh-darn fanfic writer take into account or acknowledge the comic books in some way (even if it's in the warnings/author notes), even though the fanfic writer has zero interest, doesn't care, and has never read the comic books and never will read the comic books is pretty darn presumptuous of you, don't you think?
To be perfectly honest, it is in a sense presumptuous that people actually put effort into a hobby. Afterall, people do it for fun.
Insert Slippery Slope argument here.
All I require is that effort be put into fanfic.
Hate to break it to you, sport. You throwing a fit about this whenever someone contradicts you and points out that the separation of Buffy comics!canon and television!canon has a pretty long history that actually works isn't going to change anyone's mind. You calling people lazy for not head-nodding at the comics books is not going to win anyone over to your side, either.
Normaly, that would be a perfectly cogent argument, as the comics do not apply until after the series. But, as more and more Post-Chosen fics are written, the fact that no one is doing the research is disconcerting in my view. There are only two sources of information on the Post-Chosen world: the novel "Queen of the Slayers" and the Season 8 comics. One of them is fully endorsed, the other is from a media-tie-in that has never been acknowledges as canonical.
Writing as a form should have effort put into it, not just slapped together.
Maybe it's the small scientist in me who dreams of the idealized "debate to agreement" that I have often experinced. Stupid ideals.
So, no, I don't think anyone misunderstanding what you're writing at all. If we're all "misunderstanding" you the same way, than chances are you're saying it wrong and haven't been at all clear about your point. So maybe a little bit of a reword?
Screw your strawman. Not misunderstanding, missing the point completely. You and the others continue to focus on the insignifigant point in comparison to the rest: It is not that it violates Buffyverse canon, it that is, no matter how you slice it from the Chosen starting block, logically impossible to reach "a single demon with posessing capabilities and a handfull of minions take out some of the most powerful and skilled supernatural hunters on the planet" just doens't make sense.
If it was Doctor Doom, there wouldn't be a problem, but not a demon with no damn name.
The important line, in case it needs emphasis again, is this:
It will take much more than one powerful posessing demon and his handfull of lackies to take them down.
The canonical issues are a sidepoint at best.
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April 20 2007, 17:51:48 UTC 5 years ago
Wow, that sounds like it would have been so awesome to read without knowing about it first because some of us avoid previews in order to preserve the experience or something.
GAH!
April 20 2007, 18:51:11 UTC 5 years ago
Moot, I know.
Sorry!
April 20 2007, 19:39:51 UTC 5 years ago
Stuff changes in fanfics. Deal with it. We take the property of someone and twist it to our own purposes. And we don't have to acknowledge bits of it if we don't want to.
April 20 2007, 19:44:27 UTC 5 years ago
And it doesn't work for them, either.
April 21 2007, 19:10:09 UTC 5 years ago
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April 20 2007, 21:05:20 UTC 5 years ago
You cannot *demand* that other people do anything. If YOU want to include the comics as canon in your own work, that is cool. But you don't get to be insulting if other writers choose to only acknowledge the TV series. Or the books. Or the original movie, as the case may be.
I understand that YOU feel the comics should be acknowledged as canon by everyone - my only point is that YOU CANNOT MAKE OTHER BUFFY WRITERS DO THIS IF THEY DON'T WISH TO.
I make a point of not reading anything I don't personally like or think is plausible. You should do the same.
That is all.
April 20 2007, 21:23:07 UTC 5 years ago
The "Don't like it, don't read it" defense fails for the fact that you must be forwarned to employ it.
April 20 2007, 21:48:16 UTC 5 years ago
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April 21 2007, 01:25:40 UTC 5 years ago
The idea of season eight of Buffy still completely throws me.
But I agree with the rant.
And look forward to tracking down the comics.
April 21 2007, 06:29:07 UTC 5 years ago
1. I totally agree on your basic premise that even by the end of the TV series, a single demon couldn't take down the whole Scooby Gang. Probably couldn't take down two of them together, in fact, and I'd find a fanfic that posited one could to be a little smelly. Kind of like my feet at the moment.
2. I can take or leave the comics. Like it or not, fandom doesn't march in lockstep. Some will take the comics as canon. Some, Joss notwithstanding, won't. They're very attached to their Buffy in Italy and Xander in Africa. Speaking as a canon Nazi--and you know I am, for crying out loud--I'd be willing to read either kind. Kind of like I'd totally read Firefly fics that take up from the series and ignore Serenity. (I like my Wash, dammit!) One DW fic I've been enjoying (and should really be updated) changes the ending of S1 so that Nine doesn't regenerate and explores the possible differences in S2 as a result. I'd happily read fic that goes AU from "The Gift" and looks at how Sunnydale would deal, long term, with no Buffy. You can, believe it or not, be canon-noncompliant and still write well.
Point is, Joss can say the comics are canon all he wants (before he goes and says, well, maybe not so much); fans will decide for themselves if they want to write in compliance with comics canon or not. No one can demand they do anything else. It's like trying to teach a pig to sing--it'll waste your time and annoy the pig. Me? I'm just happy if writer uses spellcheck.
April 21 2007, 12:49:28 UTC 5 years ago
April 25 2007, 05:03:54 UTC 5 years ago
Er . . . wouldn't that be post-virtual Season 8 fic? Because there is no requirement for any post-Chosen fic to warn that it doesn't follow something written later. If I write a fic and label it post-Graduation II, I am only responsible for following canon up until the end of G2, right? At that point, I can have the characters go and do whatever I want them to do, as long as they have graduated, the school has been blown up and various people have been eaten. At least that's always been my understanding. So, if I write a post-Chosen fic and list it as such, the reader is aware that the fic follows canon through Chosen, and then goes off into my imagination.
Only if the fic is listed as post-S8 would I expect canon to follow the comics. And do the individual issues have names? If so, one could write a post-whichever-comic-you're-using-as-you
April 25 2007, 13:09:28 UTC 5 years ago